The Greek terms that are translated as “five thousand” and “four thousand” in these verses have to be translated descriptively in some languages, such as “ant heap” (Shona) or “large/uncountable number” (Chichewa, Yao).
See also numbers in Kombai.
Ὅτε τοὺς ἑπτὰ εἰς τοὺς τετρακισχιλίους, πόσων σπυρίδων πληρώματα κλασμάτων ἤρατε; καὶ λέγουσιν [αὐτῷ], Ἑπτά.
20“And the seven for the four thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces did you collect?” And they said to him, “Seven.”
The Greek terms that are translated as “five thousand” and “four thousand” in these verses have to be translated descriptively in some languages, such as “ant heap” (Shona) or “large/uncountable number” (Chichewa, Yao).
See also numbers in Kombai.
Following are a number of back-translations of Mark 8:20:
Like many languages (but unlike Greek or Hebrew or English), Tuvan uses a formal vs. informal 2nd person pronoun (a familiar vs. a respectful “you”). Unlike other languages that have this feature, however, the translators of the Tuvan Bible have attempted to be very consistent in using the different forms of address in every case a 2nd person pronoun has to be used in the translation of the biblical text.
As Voinov shows in Pronominal Theology in Translating the Gospels (in: The Bible Translator 2002, p. 210ff.), the choice to use either of the pronouns many times involved theological judgment. While the formal pronoun can signal personal distance or a social/power distance between the speaker and addressee, the informal pronoun can indicate familiarity or social/power equality between speaker and addressee.
Here, Jesus is addressing his disciples, individuals and/or crowds with the formal pronoun, showing respect.
In most Dutch translations, Jesus addresses his disciples and common people with the informal pronoun, whereas they address him with the formal form.
Exegesis:
This question refers to the second feeding of the multitude, narrated in 8.6-9.
hote tous hepta literally ‘when the seven’: as the previous verse shows, this is the concise way of saying, ‘When I broke the seven loaves….’
posōn spuridōn plērōmata klasmatōn ērate; ‘how many baskets full of broken pieces did you take up?’ The meaning of the question is perfectly obvious but the details of the grammatical relations of the words in Greek should not be overlooked. The verb ērate ‘you took up’ has for its direct object posōn spuridōn plērōmata literally ‘the fillings of how many baskets,’ ‘how many basketfuls’ (cf. 6.43 for identical construction, and for the meaning of plērōma ‘filling,’ ‘complement’); klasmatōn ‘of broken pieces’ is another genitive which indicates the nature of ‘basketfuls,’ i.e. ‘basketfuls of broken pieces.’
spuris (cf. 8.9) ‘basket.’
Translation:
The key words in this verse should be related to those terms used in 8.6-9.
The seven for the four thousand is a highly elliptical expression, quite regularly employed in many languages, but impossible in others. The expansion may require ‘when seven loaves were given to be eaten by the four thousand people’ (Southern Subanen), or ‘when I broke the seven loaves for the four thousand people,’ in order to preserve more parallelism with the preceding verse.
Said to him may be ‘answered him.’
Seven may require expansion to ‘seven baskets’ or ‘we took up seven baskets.’
Quoted with permission from Bratcher, Robert G. and Nida, Eugene A. A Handbook on the Gospel of Mark. (UBS Handbook Series). New York: UBS, 1961. For this and other handbooks for translators see here .
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